|
Post by Inanimate on Oct 9, 2015 11:06:55 GMT -8
Board COST (COST: Target creature boards this vehicle for as long as you control both. Creatures can only be aboard one vehicle at a time. All creatures aboard a vehicle can only attack or block together.) // Vehicles give bonuses to creatures aboard them. Crew (Tap two untapped creatures you control: This vehicle becomes crewed until end of turn.) // Vehicles with Crew get bonuses as long as they are crewed. Here is the previous discussion thread for Board.Use this topic for talking about vehicle mechanics in general. If you have a concern that you feel warrants a new thread - for example, one that involves multiple mechanics at once, or is particularly noteworthy such as proposing a significantly different version of the basic idea - make a new thread for it. Otherwise, please use this thread. The vision pile is meant to represent vehicles and mounts in Magic, a long sought-after mechanic. Current discussion is about which version to use and whether we can combine the ideas behind Combine and Vehicles.
|
|
|
Post by nichgrayson on Oct 21, 2015 4:42:08 GMT -8
Road Hopper 1 Artifact - Vehicle Road Hopper's operators get +1/+0. At the beginning of each combat, if Road Hopper has exactly one operator, that creature gains menace until end of turn. Operate 1 (1: Target creature you control operates this vehicle and no other vehicle. Operate only as a sorcery.)
Horseless Buggy 2 Artifact - Vehicle Horseless Buggy's operators have haste. At the beginning of each combat, if Horseless Buggy has exactly two operators, those creatures gain first strike until end of turn. Operate 2 (2: Target creature you control operates this vehicle and no other vehicle. Operate only as a sorcery.)
Sky Sloop 3 Artifact - Vehicle Sky Sloop's operators have flying. At the beginning of each combat, if Sky Sloop has exactly three operators, those creatures get +1/+1 until end of turn. Operate 3 (3: Target creature you control operates this vehicle and no other vehicle. Operate only as a sorcery.)
The basic difference I'm proposing between Equip and Vehicles is that vehicles provide a secondary bonus if they are optimally crewed. But it's also possible to have too many bodies aboard a vehicle, so optimization is a bullseye rather than a threshold.
I also toyed with a range of numbers rather than an exact bullseye to discourage instant speed removal from making the secondary bonus too unreliable. I guess that depends on the power level of instant speed removal in the set. Anyway, those version look like this:
Road Hopper 1 Artifact - Vehicle Road Hopper's operators get +1/+0. At the beginning of each combat, if Road Hopper has exactly one or two operator, those creatures gain menace until end of turn. Operate 1 (1: Target creature you control operates this vehicle and no other vehicle. Operate only as a sorcery.)
Horseless Buggy 2 Artifact - Vehicle Horseless Buggy's operators have haste. At the beginning of each combat, if Horseless Buggy has exactly two or three operators, those creatures gain first strike until end of turn. Operate 2 (2: Target creature you control operates this vehicle and no other vehicle. Operate only as a sorcery.)
Sky Sloop 3 Artifact - Vehicle Sky Sloop's operators have flying. At the beginning of each combat, if Sky Sloop has exactly three or four operators, those creatures get +1/+1 until end of turn. Operate 3 (3: Target creature you control operates this vehicle and no other vehicle. Operate only as a sorcery.)
|
|
|
Post by Inanimate on Oct 21, 2015 15:47:33 GMT -8
I still like Operate but worry about its wordiness. It does solve the problems of not providing interesting decisions, as was pointed out in the comments thread.
As I said in the thread, I like the idea of Crew on vehicle creatures with a single pilot in their art. The vehicle is capable of being piloted by a single person, but works at its best when a team chips in. Seems like a simple way to capture the flavor... but it's also not the most exciting.
|
|
|
Post by radicaljackal on Oct 22, 2015 10:04:40 GMT -8
Operate - Is this supposed to be a 1 to 1 relationship or can multiple creatures Operate the same thing. I dislike anything that is basically equipment with downside.
Board - I get that the creatures aboard a ship must attack together but what happens when one of them is blocked? (hopefully nothing special but that is still a little weird) There is no way to get off a ship without getting on another?
Personally I think I would just make some pilots that can tap at sorcery speed to boost target vehicle(or just artifact creature) for as long as they remain tapped. inspired by Ghosthelm Courier cycle.
|
|
|
Post by pasteur on Oct 22, 2015 12:49:03 GMT -8
A) Pressgang Airship 4 Artifact Creature - Vessel (c) Crew When ~ attacks or blocks, if it is crewed, it gets +4/+4 and Flying until end of turn. 0/1
B) Corong Airship 4 Artifact Creature - Vessel (c) Crew Flying CARDNAME can't attack or block unless crewed. 4/4
B is better with Fight and easier math (4/4 rather than 4/5), but less good with +1/+1 counters, pump spells, or chump attacks.
C) Time Machine 8 Artifact (mr) Crew T: Look at the top card of your library. 8, T: If CARDNAME is crewed, restart the game, leaving in play creatures you control crewing CARDNAME.
D) Boiler Shift 2R Instant (c) Crew CARDNAME deals 3 damage to target creature or player. If it was crewed, it deals 6 damage to that creature or player instead.
Either A or B could pair with either C or D, in case we want to expand Crew's functionality beyond vehicles to either noncreature permanents or nonpermanent spells. C could also be a creature as well, just with a noncombat crew bonus; D could be an enchantment or noncreature artifact that sacs when crewed rather than an instant if the rules don't like this on nonpermanent spells.
|
|
|
Post by Inanimate on Oct 22, 2015 13:15:00 GMT -8
I think effects like A are for the best. At higher rarities we can experiment with noncombat bonuses and other stuff like that. Maybe noncreature Crew could also appear as well at higher rarities.
Like I said, I think "can't attack or block unless crewed" isn't necessary as long as the art / flavor make it clear there's at least a few dudes on the vehicle.
|
|
|
Post by jaytreat on Oct 26, 2015 13:01:50 GMT -8
It wasn't popular, but I'm still inclined toward the equipment-based solution based on all the concerns I'm hearing.
Autocar {2} Artifact—Equipment Equipped creature is 3/3. Equip {1}
Autogyro {2} Artifact—Equipment Equipped creature is 2/2 and has flying. Equip {2}
Autonaut {4} Artifact—Equipment (unc) Equipped creature is 5/3 and must attack each turn if able. Equip {2}
Autotitan {6} Artifact—Equipment (rare) Equipped creature is 10/10 and doesn't untap during your untap step. Equip {8}
Totem Armor ability might help or might not.
|
|
|
Post by Inanimate on Oct 27, 2015 8:39:50 GMT -8
Huh, that is an interesting way of doing it. Their inability to stack is intentional, but still feel-bad.
|
|
|
Post by jaytreat on Oct 27, 2015 9:36:18 GMT -8
You /want/ creatures to be able to ride in multiple vehicles simultaneously?
|
|
|
Post by radicaljackal on Oct 27, 2015 10:53:27 GMT -8
I think this is ok if it is going to be a small theme at uncommon and up. It has some issues that I would consider not good for common, I'm not saying it can't be at common because of these just that it seems not good. -If your deck has too many they are worse than normal equipment. It is flavorful but we don't want players to just think that it is an old mechanic with a new downside. If we only have a handful of them we can make them all strong and most players that see the downside will also see all of the upside they get. I am just concerned that a player's first look could be an average strength common and they will see the downside first, making the whole theme unexciting. -It does not matter how big your creature was. Usually we want new mechanics to make players think about what new thing matters, not about what old thing no longer matters. -Timestamps matter. If Autocar and Autogyro are both common it is not unreasonable in some limited games for a player to want to make their creature into a 3/3 with flying, which they can do if they equip them in the right order. There is no obvious visual way to show if the creature is a 2/2 or a 3/3. (I am pretty sure but not positive that it is the order the 2 were equipped and not the order they were played)
On the plus side, I do like the idea of Pilots just being 1/1 creatures with good combat abilities. They would synergize with vehicles in a nice non-parasitic way.
|
|
|
Post by Inanimate on Oct 27, 2015 14:38:50 GMT -8
You /want/ creatures to be able to ride in multiple vehicles simultaneously? Haha, no. But I prefer if the mechanical implementation of equipment isn't a downside version of Equipment, you know? Radicaljackal, nice notes on the new idea. I agree it'd be a nice theme throughout the set and wouldn't need a mechanic to replace it. Your idea for Pilots that have abilities that work well with higher power - trample, first strike, lifelink, trample, etc - that are small is really clever, and works well with both these versions of Vehicles and +1/+1 counters in the set.
|
|
|
Post by jaytreat on Oct 27, 2015 17:27:07 GMT -8
I have to contest the assertion that these vehicles are a downside mechanic. Yes, they're not as useful on larger creatures, but neither is Bonesplitter. It's merely that the conditions that determine when they're strongest aren't the same as what we're used to.
Similarly, players running vehicles do still care about the size of their creatures, it's just that they want cheaper creatures to equip, rather than bigger ones. Or, to speak in the same terms, where we benefit less from a creature being bigger, we benefit more from a creature's other abilities. I'd rather put an Autogyro on my Stealer of Secrets than a Bonesplitter. Or an Autonaut on my Child of Night.
The timestamps concern is an excellent one. Equipping two vehicles to a creature will confuse players dangerously. I suppose we could add a rider to prevent a creature from equipping multiple vehicles, but that _would_ be downside, and bulky.
|
|
|
Post by pasteur on Oct 27, 2015 18:39:13 GMT -8
I'm a big fan of P/T setting vehicles, and Totem Armor (I've been calling it "crumple", borrowing on real-world terminology) is a solid fit. It uses tech we already have and presents equipment in a way that makes Tesla feel different from other settings.
If exclusivity is important, it gets away from Equip's nice no-reminder text, but we could bundle the totem armor and exclusivity riders together with something like this:
Sortag Airship {3} Artifact - Equipment Equipped creature is a 3/2 Thopter artifact creature with flying. Pilot {2} ({2}: Attach target unattached creature you control to Sortag Airship. If that creature would die, destroy this instead. Activate only as a sorcery.)
Or we could go a step further and make them like artifact auras - effectively like Champion+.
Togsar Airship {3} Artifact - Equipment Vehicle (When Togsar Airship enters the battlefield, attach it to target unattached creature. If that creature would die, destroy this instead.) Equipped creature is a 3/2 Thopter artifact creature with flying.
It's kind of wacky, but playwise it gives you the experience of upgrading your creature's stats while maintaining their abilities! Toss in the 1/1s with saboteur or "on tap/on attacking" abilities but lacking evasion, and you've got mix and match combos waiting to happen.
|
|
|
Post by pasteur on Oct 27, 2015 19:05:27 GMT -8
Of course, I've been fiddling with "equipment that tap" for the challenge of solving Combine, and I hadn't even thought of putting it to use here!
Sgorta Airship {2} Artifact - Equipment T: Equipped creature is a 2/2 Thopter artifact creature with flying until your next turn. Equip {2}
This (literally Autogyro + t:) means the timestamps are easier - whichever one you activate overwrites the previous, just like overwriting the base P/T. The flavor turns out a little weird if your creature jumps in an airship (2/2 flying) and then in a mechsuit (4/4) but keeps the flying... but that's no weirder than a Craw Wurm or Insectile Aberration wielding a Sword of X&Y, which happens every day in Magic games.
Distinct to Tesla; uses existing familiar tech; interacts with Pilots, Canisters, and +1/+1 counters - and there's still room for flavor text.
|
|
|
Post by radicaljackal on Oct 27, 2015 20:53:13 GMT -8
If we decide that we are ok with equipment that taps this is a good fix for the timestamp issue but if we do that I am wondering if it still needs to be equipment. With this if I have a canister to untap it, first mainphase I can tap, re-equip, re-tap, and then attack with 2 flying creatures. One of 3 things is true. - We should add some condition like "Equipped creature is a 2/2 Thopter artifact creature with flying until your next turn, or until CARD becomes unequipped" because it is important to the flavor that the flying creature be equipped with the plain that it is flying in. - This should not be an equipment, just an artifact that can tap at sorcery speed. It is easier to understand because the is one less step in the process of using it. - Neither of the above changes are needed, it is important that it takes extra mana to switch creatures. Keeping track of "util your next turn" is easier to keep track of when the card is usually attached. There is enough tapping of artifacts in this set that players will learn to not turn-sideways all of the equipment attached to a creature when the creature taps.
|
|
|
Post by jaytreat on Oct 28, 2015 12:46:57 GMT -8
Sgorta Airship {2} Artifact 1, T: Target creature becomes 2/2 and gains flying until your next turn. Activate this ability only as a sorcery.
|
|
|
Post by pasteur on Oct 28, 2015 13:24:30 GMT -8
Starts to feel kind of like Ashnod's Battle Gear, doesn't it. Equipment does have the upside of pre-including the sorcery clause and physically moving next to the creature it affects.
Could these have a sub-line P/T box? A less Un-y Fire Penguin sort of thing? Kind of like using the last box of the leveller frame: equipped creature has (this box's worth of stats). You can place the vehicle underneath it with just that section showing? This... might be trying to re-invent the wheel.
|
|
|
Post by radicaljackal on Oct 28, 2015 17:00:09 GMT -8
Airship {2} Artifact - Equipment vehicle Equipped creature is 2/2 and has flying. When you equip CARD unattach all other vehicles from equipped creature. Equip {2}
If we want a simple equipment, how do we feel about a triggered ability? I think this is better than making a new keyword that is similar to equip. It is flavorful, and even new players should be able to play it without having to think about timestamps (assuming we don't print something like unforge that may want to be cast in response to this ability). It is a bit of a pain for MtGO players that have to pass priority on a trigger that usually does nothing.
|
|
|
Post by jaytreat on Oct 29, 2015 6:50:30 GMT -8
For theme, I really want it to be random whether the vehicle crashes or the pilot is killed when dying would happen, but that's surely far too wordy (and potentially annoying to execute) than it's worth.
|
|
|
Post by jaytreat on Oct 29, 2015 6:54:53 GMT -8
War Machine {5} Artifact Creature-Vehicle CARDNAME can't attack or block unless it's crewed. Crew {2} ({2}, Exile another creature you control until this leaves the battlefield, or return a card exiled by ~ to the battlefield. Crew only as a sorcery.) 5/5
Driving Ace {2}{R} Creature-Pilot First strike Vehicles piloted by ~ have first strike. 2/2
|
|