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Combine
Oct 9, 2015 10:43:28 GMT -8
Post by droqen on Oct 9, 2015 10:43:28 GMT -8
Combine (As ~ attacks along with a OTHER PART, you may transform and join them into a single card until end of turn.)Here is the previous discussion thread for Combine.Use this topic for talking about Combine in general. If you have a concern that you feel warrants a new thread - for example, one that involves multiple mechanics at once, or is particularly noteworthy such as proposing a significantly different version of the mechanic - make a new thread for it. Otherwise, please use this thread. Historically troublesome and a competitor with assembling contraptions. Let's see if we can improve this, or even combine them (harhar). Current discussion is about whether combining mecha make sense for Kaladesh.
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Combine
Oct 21, 2015 6:05:36 GMT -8
Post by nichgrayson on Oct 21, 2015 6:05:36 GMT -8
Further refining the Core and Chassis combiner concept. I reverted Combine from a keyword to an activated ability. Now you can transform and attack the same turn you cast the missing half to increase likelihood of making a Mecha. I also removed the flip back clause on the Mecha side and gave the common Chassis a clause about getting a half back if the Mecha dies. Commons need to be simple, so they don't get the bells and whistles I imagine for UNC and RAR which would offset any two for one-ing. So the clause exists, but it's not necessary for every Chassis at all rarities. [DAY] Network Core 3 Artifact Creature - Core 2/2 2: Exile Network Core and target chassis you control. If you do, return them to the battlefield transformed as one permanent with haste. /// [NITE] [Artifact color identity] Network... Artifact Creature - ... This creature gets +1/+0 and has lifelink. Whenever this creature attacks, ...
[DAY] Thundering Frame 4 Artifact Creature - Chassis 2/4 /// [NITE] [Artifact color identity] ...Thunderer Mecha ... Mecha 3/5 When this creature dies, you may return either half of it to its owner's hand. ...tap target creature with power 2 or less.
[DAY] Gravity Core 2 Artifact Creature - Core 1/2 2: Exile Gravity Core and target chassis you control. If you do, return them to the battlefield transformed as one permanent with haste. /// [NITE] [Artifact color identity] Gravity... Artifact Creature - ... This creature get +0/+1 and has flying. Whenever this creature attacks, ...
[DAY] Predicting Frame 3 Artifact Creature - Chassis 1/3 /// [NITE][Artifact color identity] ... Predictor Mecha ... Mecha 2/4 When this creature dies, you may return either half of it to its owner's hand. ... scry 1.
[DAY] Tomb Core 4 Artifact Creature - Core 4/1 2: Exile Tomb Core and target chassis you control. If you do, return them to the battlefield transformed as one permanent with haste. /// [NITE] [Artifact color identity] Tomb... Artifact Creature - ... This creature gets +1/+0 and has menace. Whenever this creature attacks, ...
[DAY] Leeching Frame 2 Artifact Creature - Chassis 0/3 /// [NITE][Artifact color identity] ... Leecher Mecha ... Mecha 1/4 When this creature dies, you may return either half of it to its owner's hand. ... each opponent loses 1 life..
[DAY] Molten Core 2 Artifact Creature 2/1 2: Exile Flame Core and target chassis you control. If you do, return them to the battlefield transformed as one permanent with haste. /// [NITE] [Artifact color identity] Molten... Artifact Creature - ... This creature has "2: This creature gets +1/+0 until end of turn." Whenever this creature attacks, ...
[DAY] Raiding Frame 4 Artifact Creature - Chassis 3/2 /// [NITE][Artifact color identity] ... Raider Mecha ... Mecha 4/3 When this creature dies, you may return either half of it to its owner's hand. ... you may discard a card. If you do, draw a card.
[DAY] Siege Core 4 Artifact Creature - Core 3/2 2: Exile Siege Core and target chassis you control. If you do, return them to the battlefield transformed as one permanent with haste. /// [NITE] [Artifact color identity] Siege... Artifact Creature - ... This creature gets +1/+0 and has trample. Whenever this creature attacks, ...
[DAY] Hunting Frame 6 Artifact Creature - Chassis 5/3 /// [NITE][Artifact color identity] ... Hunter Mecha ... Mecha 6/4 When this creature dies, you may return either half of it to its owner's hand. ... target creature blocks this turn if able.
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Combine
Oct 21, 2015 6:06:36 GMT -8
Post by nichgrayson on Oct 21, 2015 6:06:36 GMT -8
In thinking about pilots, I am not sure their proper role. It was easy however to consider some Mecha enablers for WUB and anti-Mecha cards in RG. I don't know where Mecha will fit along the color pie, so I just went with the Consul VS rebels split in Kaladesh.
Repair Pilot (UNCOMMON) 1W Creature - Human Pilot 2/2 Sacrifice NAME: Target Mecha gains indestructible until end of turn.
Cunning Pilot (UNCOMMON) 3U Creature - Human Pilot 2/3 Flash When NAME enters the battlefield, you may exile target Core and target Chassis you control. If you do, return them to the battlefield transformed as one permanent with haste.
Salvage Pilot (UNCOMMON) 3B Creature - Human Pilot 2/2 When NAME enters the battlefield, return up to two artifact creature cards from your graveyard to your hand.
Joy Rider (UNCOMMON) 4R Creature - Human Pilot 3/2 When NAME enters the battlefield, gain control of target Mecha artifact creature until NAME leaves the battlefield.
Splinter Pilot (UNCOMMON) 2G Creature - Human Pilot 2/2 Flash When NAME enters the battlefield, you may exile target Mecha. If you do, return both halves to the battlefield transformed under their owners' control.
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Combine
Oct 21, 2015 15:46:17 GMT -8
Post by Inanimate on Oct 21, 2015 15:46:17 GMT -8
Great implementation, nich. Seems like a good simplification of the ideas!
One thing I'd like to discuss is whether we can extrapolate upon Combine and have it broach new flavor territory - to solve the issue of mecha not being fitting for the set, could we perhaps have any kind of artifact combine? Or is it too tough to find modular effects for that?
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Combine
Oct 23, 2015 11:28:58 GMT -8
Post by radicaljackal on Oct 23, 2015 11:28:58 GMT -8
If there is room in this already complicated mechanic do we want some built in "searching"? What if every core had "3: Reveal the top 5 cards of your library. You may put a Chassis card from among them on top of your library. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in any order."
Looking into different ways to combine 2 artifacts, I'm seeing Licids, Living Weapons, and Myr Welder. There are not a lot of things that we would want to grant to a noncreature artifact, and there are not a lot of simple things we can gain from a generic other artifact. The most basic version of combine would be something like "Sacrifice another artifact: Put X +1/+1 counters on this where X is the sacrificed artifact's CMC" We probably want to add TAP or sorcery speed to that so it isn't as devastating in combat. There could be a version of this for Charge counters, but if you are using those up then it really feels more like reloading than combining.
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Combine
Oct 27, 2015 8:53:01 GMT -8
Post by Inanimate on Oct 27, 2015 8:53:01 GMT -8
I don't think there's room for searching in this mechanic. It's already complicated as-is. I could see the latter one if it exiled rather than sacrificed. That way, artifacts could care about things they 'combined' with. For example: Omni-Engine 3 Artifact (U) Combine (Exile another artifact you control: Put X charge counters on this, where X is the sacrificed artifact's converted mana cost. Omni-Engine has all activated abilities of artifacts it combined with. Combine only as as sorcery.)1, T, remove a counter from Omni Engine: Put a Canister token onto the battlefield. Blah blah On creatures, charge counters would be replaced by +1/+1 counters. Also, do note that the ability removes a counter, not a charge counter - so it works well with other Combine artifacts. This seems really narrow, but it's definitely a neat idea. Thanks, Radicaljackal. - In addition, over at MTGS, IcariiFA proposed 'Merge', which seems promising.
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Combine
Oct 27, 2015 19:25:07 GMT -8
Post by pasteur on Oct 27, 2015 19:25:07 GMT -8
When we last left off in the comment thread, there was some discussion about alternative ways to grant the feeling of Combine to players who want that experience. One way is to innovate in the footsteps of Kaldra/Of-Empires/Sift Through Sands/Bogbrew Witch. If we can offer Jennies the chance to try out a draft archetype or casual constructed offering without taxing the rest of the set, I think that could achieve our goal. Here was my best first attempt to make it as common as possible.
Spring-Sword Sidearm 2 Artifact - Equipment (common) 1, T: Equipped creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn. Equip 2
Spring-Speed Chassis 3 Artifact - Equipment (common) Equipped creature has haste. T: Equipped creature gains first strike until end of turn. If it already had first strike, it gains double strike until end of turn. Equip 1
Spring-Engine Nexus 3 Artifact Creature - Construct (uncommon) Vigilance At the beginning of combat on each turn, untap each equipment attached to Spring-Engine Nexus. 1/4
Plus or minus a card like: Springwise Engineer 2W Creature - Artificer (rare) 2, T: Search your library for a card named Spring-Sword Sidearm, Spring-Speed Chassis, or Spring-Engine Nexus and put it onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library. 0/3
This particular version doesn't call each other out like Festering Newt or Crown of Empires, but they do synergize and have a dream-that-you-can-live, in casual constructed or draft. We could make them more "If you control a Mine and a Tower, do [blah] instead" too - just give them a set to complete (that's balanced between rarity and playability) and players will be interested in completing that set.
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Post by Inanimate on Nov 3, 2015 9:49:37 GMT -8
Mm, I liked that idea. I'm curious how many of these kinds of cycles we could fit into a set, but I think it could work. And players do seem to love cards like this - I know I do, to be honest. I'll brainstorm some ideas for 'engines' like this. I like the subtlety of the Spring cycle without the Engineer - it's connected thematically and mechanically without being blunt, which is nice.
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Combine
Nov 5, 2015 13:01:30 GMT -8
Post by nichgrayson on Nov 5, 2015 13:01:30 GMT -8
My upcoming playtest has Mecha in UBR with a new flavor. Here's the pitch: Mecha are relics of the days of war, when what would become the cities fought off invaders to become a place of progress and industry. Now the mecha are used by the Consul to fight far off battles against the few remaining uncivilized peoples of Kaladesh. Each mecha is comprised of an exosuit and pilot. The Exosuit, nicknamed an exo, is powered by a captured elemental creature. These elementals power the suit for hundreds of years and imbue the artifice with Magical properties. I made a few of the pilots non-human races because again, mecha fighting happens way outside regular society.
Here are the Mecha I'm playtesting, along with the enablers I added to the card pool:
Exocage Wave-Kin 2U Artifact Creature — Elemental Exo 1/4 ---Flip--- <— Hydromech
<— Elemental Mecha 2/5 If this Mecha would die, transform it, then the Pilot or Exo dies instead. <—] tap or untap target creature.
Wing-Class Pilot U Creature — Human Pilot 1/2 Combine 3 (3: Transform this Pilot and target Exo you control into one permanent, then untap it.) ---Flip--- Bomberwing [—>
Artifact Creature — Human [—> This Mecha gets +0/+1 and has flying. Whenever this Mecha attacks, [—>
Exocage Coal-Kin 2B Artifact Creature — Elemental Exo 2/3 ---Flip--- <—] Cindermech
<—] Elemental Mecha 3/4 If this Mecha would die, transform it, then the Pilot or Exo dies instead. <—] each opponent lose 1 life.
Infantry-Class Pilot 1B Creature — Vampire Pilot 2/2 Combine 3 (3: Transform this Pilot and target Exo you control into one permanent, then untap it.) ---Flip--- Deathstrike [—>
Artifact Creature — Vampire [—> 2B: This Mecha gets +2/+2 until end of turn. Whenever this Mecha attacks, [—>
Exocage Lightning-Kin 3R Artifact Creature — Elemental Exo 3/3 ---Flip--- <—] Electramech
<—] Elemental Mecha 4/4 If this Mecha would die, transform it, then the Pilot or Exo dies instead. <—] scry 1.
Siege-Class Pilot 2R Creature — Goblin Pilot 3/1 Combine 3 (3: Transform this Pilot and target Exo you control into one permanent, then untap it.) ---Flip--- Ramfront [—>
Artifact Creature — Goblin [—> This Mecha gets +1/+0 and has trample. Whenever this Mecha attacks, [—>
Armor-Class Fodder 1 Artifact Creature — Construct Pilot 1/1 Combine 3 (3: Transform this Pilot and target Exo you control into one permanent, then untap it.) ---Flip--- Armor-Defense [—>
Artifact Creature — Construct [—> This Mecha gets +1/+1. Whenever this Mecha attacks, [—>
Exocage Steam-Kin 5 Artifact Creature — Elemental Exo 4/2 ---Flip--- <—] Boilermech
<—] Elemental Mecha 5/3 If this Mecha would die, transform it, then the Pilot or Exo dies instead. <—] you gain 2 life.
Grim Recovery 1B Sorcery Choose one or both — • Return target artifact card from your graveyard to your hand. • Return target creature card from your graveyard to your hand.
Spark of Genius (Also enables Rebellion) 1R Enchantment Whenever a spell or permanent you control transforms, Spark of Genius deals 1 damage to each opponent.
Mecha Crafter 3 Artifact Creature — Construct 0/3 Defender Artifact spells you cast cost 1 less to cast.
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Combine
Nov 5, 2015 13:33:19 GMT -8
Post by Inanimate on Nov 5, 2015 13:33:19 GMT -8
Looks good, Nich. The flavor is a nice start, and helps justify the colored nature of both parts of the combined Mecha. I like the idea of the 'Chassis' being a magical frame, and the 'Core' being a person. Gives it nice fantasy flavor.
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AlexC
New Member
Posts: 16
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Combine
Nov 15, 2015 15:42:06 GMT -8
Post by AlexC on Nov 15, 2015 15:42:06 GMT -8
Looking into different ways to combine 2 artifacts, I'm seeing Licids, Living Weapons, and Myr Welder. There are not a lot of things that we would want to grant to a noncreature artifact, and there are not a lot of simple things we can gain from a generic other artifact. This was what I found in my steampunk set. One of the mechanics that playtested distinctly less well than others was "equipment for artifacts", which I called Connectors: "Connect {2} ({2}: Attach to target artifact you control. Connect only as a sorcery.)" As I wrote when I was first planning the set: I talk about that over on this page: www.magicmultiverse.net/cardsets/32/details_pages/22 I also talk about my other mechanic to allow artifacts (and as it turned out creatures) to "combine" together in chains to provide chain reactions, which was basically just like a few new kinds of mana. That one playtested well, unlike Connectors.
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AlexC
New Member
Posts: 16
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Combine
Nov 15, 2015 16:01:27 GMT -8
Post by AlexC on Nov 15, 2015 16:01:27 GMT -8
I'm loving the look of Nich's Mecha. The flavour you've come up with there is a lot more suitable for MtG than the old take on it we had.
I'm not convinced by the Pilots giving +1/+0 / +0/+1 / etc - that doesn't seem enough gain in variation and gameplay to be worth the overhead of board state readability, card complexity, and card memorability (common DFCs need to have their back sides very easily memorable so that you don't have to constantly fish them out of their sleeve to remind yourself what it'll transform into).
But apart from that, that all looks really good. Pity to hear that the playtest didn't lead to any mecha combining. I guess they'll need either to be spread across all five colours, or to have a greater density than you had. (Which might be able to be just a bunch of uncommons/rares as well as the commons? Not sure of that though.)
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Combine
Nov 17, 2015 8:40:55 GMT -8
Post by nichgrayson on Nov 17, 2015 8:40:55 GMT -8
In the spirit of making the commons easy to remember without having to flip them, in my next playtest I am trying non-vanilla Pilots and Exos, where they have keywords or ETB effects that mirror there backside. And to help them combine, I’m making Precons so my playetesters will have a deck chock full of Pilots and Exos. (Other small changes: I added twobrid mana which is based on some other stuff I’m trying in the playtest. I simplified the Exocage’s names. I don’t think my playtesters need the flavor concept tripping up their ability to talk about the cards.)
Wave-Kin Exo 3(2/U) Artifact Creature – Elemental Exo 1/4 ((2/U) can be paid with any two mana or with U. This card's converted mana cost is 5.) When Wave-Kin Exo enters the battlefield, tap or untap target creature. ---Flip--- <— Hydromech
<— Elemental Mecha 2/5 If this Mecha would die, transform it, then the Pilot or Exo dies instead. <—] tap or untap target creature.
Wing-Class Pilot 1U Creature – Human Pilot 1/2 Flying Combine 3 (3: Transform this Pilot and target Exo you control into one permanent, then untap it.) ---Flip--- Bomberwing [—>
Artifact Creature — Human [—> This Mecha gets +0/+1 and has flying. Whenever this Mecha attacks, [—>
Coal-Kin Exo 2(2/B) Artifact Creature – Elemental Exo 2/3 ((2/B) can be paid with any two mana or with B. This card's converted mana cost is 4.) When Coal-Kin Exo enters the battlefield, each opponent loses 1 life. ---Flip--- <—] Cindermech
<—] Elemental Mecha 3/4 If this Mecha would die, transform it, then the Pilot or Exo dies instead. <—] each opponent lose 1 life.
Infantry-Class Pilot 1B Creature – Vampire Pilot 2/2 2B: Infantry-Class Pilot gets +1/+1 until end of turn. Combine 3 (3: Transform this Pilot and target Exo you control into one permanent, then untap it.) ---Flip--- Deathstrike [—>
Artifact Creature — Vampire [—> 2B: This Mecha gets +2/+2 until end of turn. Whenever this Mecha attacks, [—>
Lightning-Kin Exo 3(2/R) Artifact Creature – Elemental Exo 3/3 ((2/R) can be paid with any two mana or with R. This card's converted mana cost is 5.) When Lightning-Kin Exo enters the battlefield, scry 1. ---Flip--- <—] Electramech
<—] Elemental Mecha 4/4 If this Mecha would die, transform it, then the Pilot or Exo dies instead. <—] scry 1.
Siege-Class Pilot 2R Creature – Goblin Pilot 3/1 Trample Combine 3 (3: Transform this Pilot and target Exo you control into one permanent, then untap it.) ---Flip--- Ramfront [—>
Artifact Creature — Goblin [—> This Mecha gets +1/+0 and has trample. Whenever this Mecha attacks, [—>
Armor-Class Fodder 1 Artifact Creature — Construct Pilot 1/1 Combine 3 (3: Transform this Pilot and target Exo you control into one permanent, then untap it.) ---Flip--- Armor-Defense [—>
Artifact Creature — Construct [—> This Mecha gets +1/+1. Whenever this Mecha attacks, [—>
Steam-Kin Exo 5 Artifact Creature – Elemental Exo 4/2 When Steam-Kin Exo enters the battlefield, you gain 2 life. ---Flip--- <—] Boilermech
<—] Elemental Mecha 5/3 If this Mecha would die, transform it, then the Pilot or Exo dies instead. <—] you gain 2 life.
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AlexC
New Member
Posts: 16
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Combine
Nov 17, 2015 17:13:57 GMT -8
Post by AlexC on Nov 17, 2015 17:13:57 GMT -8
This looks pretty fun. I'd like to try playtesting them myself - I think one of my regular group would be up for that. Could you send me the full decklist, and maybe the MSE set too?
I'm a little nervous rules-wise about "If this would die, transform it, then [one half] dies instead", especially with regard to things like marked damage; but if the gameplay works out we can fix the rules somehow.
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Combine
Nov 17, 2015 22:49:37 GMT -8
Post by radicaljackal on Nov 17, 2015 22:49:37 GMT -8
If I attach an aura to a pilot, then I combine it, then it dies and I save the exo, is my aura now attached to the exo? That seems super weird but I guess it could work. We may want to exile and return to the battlefield every time we combine and separate to avoid any weird rules about continued effects but that could be a lot of creatures entering the battlefield. And the death would be something like, choose one to exile and the other dies and then return the exiled one.
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AlexC
New Member
Posts: 16
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Combine
Nov 18, 2015 6:02:12 GMT -8
Post by AlexC on Nov 18, 2015 6:02:12 GMT -8
If I attach an aura to a pilot, then I combine it, then it dies and I save the exo, is my aura now attached to the exo? That seems super weird but I guess it could work. We may want to exile and return to the battlefield every time we combine and separate to avoid any weird rules about continued effects but that could be a lot of creatures entering the battlefield. And the death would be something like, choose one to exile and the other dies and then return the exiled one. This idea has been mentioned before. As I said, if the gameplay works well (in the "normal" case) we can fix the rules to handle the edge cases. I'm fine with Auras "moving" between a pilot and an exo. I'd be fine with exile-then-return if it wasn't so wordy.
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