|
|
Post by droqen on Oct 9, 2015 10:44:55 GMT -8
Envision N (Put the top N cards of your library into your vision pile.) // Cards then interact with the vision pile. Here is the previous discussion thread for envision and the "vision pile".Use this topic for talking about Envision and the "Vision Pile" in general. If you have a concern that you feel warrants a new thread - for example, one that involves multiple mechanics at once, or is particularly noteworthy such as proposing a significantly different version of the mechanic - make a new thread for it. Otherwise, please use this thread. The vision pile is meant to represent creativity, innovation, and ingenuity. Current discussion is about how exactly to implement the "vision pile" and the ways we can interact with it.
|
|
|
|
Post by pasteur on Oct 15, 2015 14:43:43 GMT -8
I don't hate the mechanical action of pulling artifacts from "outside the game" into your hand/play to represent sudden success in innovation & invention. I do dislike "another exile pile" though, to be honest. Vision as we have it does avoid some of the worst parts of Illuminate, but it feels excessively parasitic to me as-is.
Maybe the gameplay will be better in playtesting than I think? But its similarity to Ingest-etc makes me wary, and it feels like most of the reasons self-mill is unpopular will be even worse with "exile some portion of your deck."
Is there maybe some way to have inventors/players pull ideas/artifacts from their sideboards to have a similar flavor-feel? We might also discuss alternative smoothing mechanics that could capture other feelings of brainstorming/progress/innovating.
|
|
|
|
Post by Inanimate on Oct 15, 2015 16:31:46 GMT -8
Yeah, the parasitism is a huge issue of Envision that I haven't been able to overcome just yet. I do think interacting with 'outside of the game' is space we want to look into (if not for a mechanic) but as it is, Envision is a difficult sell.
|
|
|
|
Post by masticon on Oct 15, 2015 18:36:21 GMT -8
I think the safest way to work with this is more of a self ingest and processor rather than caring about the specific cards that are exiled. If your cards interact by putting your exiled cards into the graveyard, perhaps with stricter limitations, you could avoid the issues with this being a parasitic graveyard substitute.
Bad example below:
Force of Envision
3UU
Instant
Counter Target Spell.
You may place a card you own, with the same type as the target, from exile to your graveyard instead of paying the mana cost for this spell.
|
|
|
|
Post by jaytreat on Oct 16, 2015 12:07:14 GMT -8
While I'm definitely in favor of investigating wishes, I really don't think there will be a problem with self-mill when the benefits are significant and/or immediately obvious.
Obligatory Blue Smoothing Card U
Sorcery
Envision 3
Put a card from your vision pile into your hand.
Obligatory Green Gas Card 2G
Sorcery
Envision 3
Put up to one land card and up to one creature card from your vision pile into your hand.
Obligatory Burn Card 2R
Instant
Envision 3
~ deals damage to target c/p equal to the highest CMC among cards in your vision pile.
Alternate Universe Mirror 4UU
Creature
As ~ ETB, Envision 3, then put a creature card from your vision pile OTB. ~ ETB as a copy of that creature.
0/0
|
|
|
|
Post by jaytreat on Oct 16, 2015 12:11:24 GMT -8
Renewal 1G
Instant
Shuffle any number of cards from your vision pile into your deck.
Draw a card.
|
|
|
|
Post by Inanimate on Oct 21, 2015 15:52:00 GMT -8
Jay, those designs are very nice and really sell me on the vision pile as a nice way to handle a 'storage space'. Probably not a super exciting mechanic, but it does seem to be doing nice work. I still feel like if we could find a unified mechanic to interact with the vision zone more consistently and in a more exciting way, we might be onto something even better. As it is, this is functional and interesting, but perhaps not exciting enough to warrant the expenditure of complexity points.
|
|
|
|
Post by Legend on Oct 31, 2015 10:22:19 GMT -8
Perhaps remove the parasitism altogether?
Envision # (When you cast this spell, exile the top # card(s) of your library face down into your vision pile. If you would draw a card, you may instead put a card from your vision pile into your hand.)
or
Envision # (When you cast this spell, exile the top # card(s) of your library face down with a vision counter on it/each of them. If you would draw a card, you may instead put an exiled card you own with a vision counter on it into your hand.)
|
|
|
|
Post by pasteur on Oct 31, 2015 13:10:29 GMT -8
Pretty much exactly Jon Loucks' Illuminate mechanic from GDS2. (The biggest flaw of which, I think, was the decision paralysis from having to decide between cards to draw all the time? And that that game action, while fun to a particular brand of player, is not always broadly fun to do.)
|
|
|
|
Post by Legend on Oct 31, 2015 15:15:06 GMT -8
Hah, I completely forgot about that. Magic's come a long way since GDS2. Maybe it's okay these days.
|
|
|
|
Post by Inanimate on Nov 3, 2015 9:50:23 GMT -8
I don't know, Legend. I think analysis paralysis and the questionable-fun of Illuminate are kinda universals among players - maybe even more of a problem given that Magic is trying to be more broadly accessible and appealing nowadays.
|
|
AlexC
New Member
Posts: 16 
|
Post by AlexC on Nov 15, 2015 14:23:02 GMT -8
I definitely think it's worth avoiding the worst bit of illuminate, which was indeed the decision tree every draw step. I really like Jay's cards. Inanimate asked for "more variety among envision cards"... Presumably that's not wanting "more cards that could sit in the set alongside Jay's, but rather "an alternate take on envision to use instead of Jay's"? (If so, that's a pity, because I like Jay's take on it  ) If so, then... hmm. A partial or full cycle of either ETB-trigger or death-trigger envision creatures seems plausible. Flavour-wise it'd seem a bit odd if creatures only envisioned others when they died, so trying ETB triggers: 1W, 2/2, common When ~ ETBs, envision 3. Then gain 4 life if you have an enchantment card in your vision pile. 2U, 2/3, common When ~ ETBs, envision 3. Then, if you have an instant card in your vision pile, target creature gains flying UEOT. 3B, 2/2, common When ~ ETBs, envision 3. Then, if you have a sorcery card in your vision pile, each opponent discards a card. 1R, 2/2, common When ~ ETBs, envision 3. ~ attacks each turn if able unless you have an artifact card in your vision pile. G, 1/2, common When ~ ETBs, envision 3. When ~ dies, you may put a land card from your vision pile into your hand. Those didn't end up all being ETB triggers. It'd obviously be fine if someone wanted to tidy them all up to be more consistent. |
|
|
|
Post by Inanimate on Nov 16, 2015 20:24:40 GMT -8
Actually, it was a mix of both, Alex. I want to explore every possible avenue we could for 'envision' the mechanic, and while I agree that Jay's cards are so far fantastic, every avenue we can try out and playtest is one more chance of finding another success which can't hurt. And having back-ups in case it doesn't go well in playtesting is important. Additionally, I think it's nice when open-ended mechanics like 'envision' are used lots of different ways in a set, rather than each card using them the exact same way - so these aren't just 'alternate takes', but the best of the best could be put into the set to exist alongside each other, letting us use only the 'cream of the crop' from each take and thus bring up overall quality.
|
|
)