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Post by droqen on Oct 9, 2015 10:31:35 GMT -8
Charge (Put a colorless Canister artifact token onto the battlefield with “Tap, Sacrifice this: Untap target permanent. Activate only as a sorcery.”)Here is the link to the previous discussion thread about Charge.Use this topic for talking about Charge or Canister tokens in general. If you have a concern that you feel warrants a new thread - for example, one that involves multiple mechanics at once, or is particularly noteworthy such as proposing a significantly different version of the mechanic - make a new thread for it. Otherwise, please use this thread. Charge is designed to represent aether canisters and resource exploitation. Even if we don't do Charge exactly, we'll probably be seeing Canister tokens in some fashion. Current discussion is about how best to make the mechanic feel as fun and interactive as Eldrazi Spawn did.
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Post by jaytreat on Oct 15, 2015 10:04:33 GMT -8
Canister Runner {2}{R} Creature-Goblin Scout (cmn) When CARDNAME ETB, charge. 2/2
Canister Hoarder {1}{B} Creature-Rat Rogue (cmn) When CARDNAME dies, charge. 2/1
Canister Courier {G} Creature-Elf Scout (cmn) When CARDNAME ETB, charge. 1/1
Fill Canisters {1}{R} Sorcery (cmn) Charge twice.
Find Energy Sources {2}{G} Sorcery (cmn) Rampant Growth. Charge.
Dig for Power {B} Sorcery (cmn) Put the top four cards of your library into your graveyard. For each land card moved this way, charge.
Ritual of Slag {R} Instant (cmn) Sacrifice any number of artifacts. Add {R}{R} to your mana pool for each of them.
Colossus of Kaladesh {4} Artifact Creature—Juggernaut (unc) CARDNAME must attack if able. CARDNAME doesn't untap during your untap step. 6/4
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Post by Inanimate on Oct 15, 2015 10:31:45 GMT -8
Fill Canisters is interesting. I'm still curious how far we can color-stretch with Charge - Fill Canisters, for example, can be "two creatures gain vigilance until end of turn".
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Post by pasteur on Oct 15, 2015 13:10:48 GMT -8
Going halfway between Fill Canisters and Ritual of Slag, I was thinking more of a Brood Birthing/Kuldotha Rebirth route.
We could go
Double Double 1R Sorcery As an additional cost to cast ~, sacrifice an artifact. Charge thrice.
or!
Triple Trouble 2R Sorcery As an additional cost to cast ~, sacrifice an artifact. Choose one: • Put three Canister artifact tokens onto the battlefield with "Sacrifice this on your turn: Untap target permanent." • Put three 1/1 Thopter artifact creature tokesn onto the battlefield with flying.
Though Triple Trouble is probably clearly going up to uncommon. As for color pie, I feel like Red and Green are the natural mechanical fits for charge - both are fair game on Temporary Mana, and both get "untapping a creature (at sorcery speed, at least)" at common.
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Post by reuben on Oct 15, 2015 15:45:14 GMT -8
I'm still worried about the wordiness here. What are the advantages and disadvantages of using a keyword action compared to just spelling it out like Eldrazi Spawn/Scions?
EDIT: Some Designs
Charge Pinger 3R Creature - Human Artificer (C) When Charge Pinger enters the battlefield, put a colorless Aether Canister artifact token onto the battlefield with “T, Sacrifice this: Untap target permanent. Activate only as a sorcery.” T: Charge Pinger deals 1 damage to each opponent. 2/3
Loot Master 2U
Creature - Human Artificer (U)
When Loot Master enters the battlefield, put a colorless Aether Canister artifact token onto the battlefield with “T, Sacrifice this: Untap target permanent. Activate only as a sorcery.”
Aether Canisters you control have "T, Sacrifice this: Draw a card then discard a card." 1/3
Sustainability Thopter 3 Artifact Creature - Thopter (U) Flying Whenever you sacrifice an artifact, you may pay 2. If you do, draw a card. 1/1
Refinery Overlord 7 Artifact Creature - Golem (R)
When Refinery Overlord enters the battlefield, put a colorless Aether Canister artifact token onto the battlefield with “T, Sacrifice this: Untap target permanent. Activate only as a sorcery.”
Aether Canisters you control have "T, Sacrifice this: Put a 3/3 colorless Golem artifact creature token onto the battlefield."
6/6
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Post by Inanimate on Oct 15, 2015 16:30:23 GMT -8
I agree that this doesn't need to be keyworded, and Eldrazi Spawn show this off well.
I still like the idea of giving Canisters the ability to be sacrificed to create minor spells. That'd go a long way towards making them more interesting - emphasizing their 'swiss-army knife' nature.
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Post by masticon on Oct 15, 2015 18:48:35 GMT -8
I don't think every Cannister buffer needs to give a canister as well.
2G Creature - Treefolk Shaman 1/3 T: Add G to your mana pool. Cannisters you control have "T, Sacrifice this: Add 2 to your mana pool."
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Post by Inanimate on Oct 21, 2015 15:53:25 GMT -8
Masticon: I think I'd prefer it if they do (I don't like cards like Enshrouding Mist) but I agree. There's Broodwarden as precedence.
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Post by nichgrayson on Oct 22, 2015 5:23:54 GMT -8
Some quick Common designs, including a White canister maker that actually works within the color pie!
Doomed Assembly Worker (COM) W Creature - Human Assembly-Worker 1/1 When Doomed Assembly Worker dies, put a colorless AEther Canister artifact token onto this battlefield. It has "HOURGLASS - T, Sacrifice this: Untap target permanent."
Stunt Aerialist (COM) 2U Creature - Human Artificer 1/3 Flying When Stunt Aerialist enters the battlefield, put a colorless AEther Canister artifact token onto this battlefield. It has "HOURGLASS - T, Sacrifice this: Untap target permanent."
Canister Collector (COM) 2BB Creature - Ogre Warrior 4/3 As an additional cost to cast Canister Collector, sacrifice a creature. When Canister Collector enters the battlefield, put a colorless AEther Canister artifact token onto this battlefield. It has "HOURGLASS - T, Sacrifice this: Untap target permanent."
AEther Troops (COM) 3R Creature - Human Soldier 4/2 Whenever you sacrifice an artifact, AEther Troops gains first strike until end of turn.
Stilt Strider (COM) 3GG Creature - Human Artificer 3/4 Reach When Stilt Strider enters the battlefield, put a colorless AEther Canister artifact token onto this battlefield. It has "HOURGLASS - T, Sacrifice this: Untap target permanent."
If you note, both Blue and Green have creatures that you may want to untap via a the canister so you can block. I don't see how Red can make these canisters in the color pie, so I designed a Belligerent Whipetail that rewards you using them (or sacrificing any artifact, really). And Black's ghoulish card suggests where the AEther really comes from.
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Post by pasteur on Oct 22, 2015 5:35:47 GMT -8
Red gets temporary mana production (what untapping of lands does) and sorcery-speed untapping of creatures.
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Post by nichgrayson on Oct 22, 2015 6:24:19 GMT -8
How do canisters count as temporary mana production when you can just horde them all to use in one big turn? I thought red's mana acceleration was based on one time effects the same turn you cast the spells to generate it. So I looked up Red cards that sacrifice to add mana and they are all from really old sets. Generator Servant fairly current, but look at this list:
Generator Servant (M15)
Infernal Plunge (Innistrad)
Emrakul's Hatcher (Rise of the Eldrazi) Rapacious One (Rise of the Eldrazi) Brood Birthing (Rise of the Eldrazi) Spawning Breath (Rise of the Eldrazi)
Thermopod (Coldsnap)
Mana Seism (Champions of Kamigawa)
Mons's Goblin Waiters (Unhinged)
Krark-Clan Stoker (Darksteel)
Goblin Clearcutter (Legions)
Skirk Prospector (Onslaught)
Orcish Lumberjack (Ice Age)
There must be a reason Red doesn't make Eldrazi Scion in Battle for Zendikar. Are canisters really something Red can do?
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Post by Inanimate on Oct 22, 2015 8:14:41 GMT -8
And since when does Red get sorcery-speed untapping? The only examples I can think of are Act of Treason and company, and that's not really what I'd consider their intended use...
I think Canisters are okay in red, but not in large quantities. They can be saved for one turn, yes, but they only produce mana in one stroke. It's equivalent to holding a Pyretic Ritual in your hand for the right turn.
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Post by pasteur on Oct 22, 2015 9:25:54 GMT -8
This is a really interesting debate!
My understanding was that Pyretic Ritual represented a move towards mana production in red. As you mentioned, ROE gave us the red Eldrazi Drones & Spawn - I don't know the reason why they didn't in BFZ, but it's hard to speculate why anything is any color in that set. If nothing else, Generator Servant should serve as recent enough precedent. Red's all-in "one big turn" potential works nicely with canisters as well.
If we wanted to stick to an ideal divvying of the color pie, I would argue that mana production is out of blue's - that Apprentice Wizard should stay in The Dark, and not in the modern sceen - but Grand Engineer and Renowned Weaponsmith say I may be wrong. (Is this a symptom of "in a vacuum, all cards are blue"? I mean, is Omniscience part of blue's color pie?)
It's true, red's sorcery-untapping is almost exclusively on Acts of Treason - but it does get it at common in nearly every block. Probably the odd one out here, but I might propose:
in Tesla, UW gets 1/1 Thopter tokens; rG gets Canister tokens.
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Post by nichgrayson on Oct 22, 2015 10:31:54 GMT -8
"One big Turn" is a thing R&D has stopped supporting because Storm is so easy to re-break. But I guess canisters are a fair compromise. Much fairer than instants and sorceries which can be flashed back with Past in Flames.
I think canisters are going be most interesting when they do different things for different color pairs. Like helping you ramp in RG, helping you reuse activated abilities in WU and UB, or a "sacrifice artifacts" theme in BR. I'm not sure where the canister production and payoff cards are in each of those color pairs, but you get what I mean.
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Post by Inanimate on Oct 22, 2015 12:09:02 GMT -8
I agree that different usage for different colors would be great, nich! That sounds like a great idea.
pasteur, blue gets colorless mana production with limitations, but more importantly, they consistently get "tap or untap target permanent". I'd call Canisters close enough to both to count. Blue also got Scions in BFZ.
"One big turn" is an issue, but I doubt Canisters will be broken to such a degree that it's a problem.
I don't think Canisters make a lot of sense in RG, since those are the 'natural mage' colors currently.
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Post by pasteur on Oct 22, 2015 12:35:25 GMT -8
What if canister production was a prominent part of Green's contribution to Tesla/Kaladesh's society? What if one of green's biggest factions was nature mages trying to balance the need to power society with the need to preserve the AEther Wellspring/planet core/what-have-you? It's true that it doesn't demonstrate "natural mages" as much as "nature mages". But it's possible that Tesla-the-set or Kaladesh-the-setting doesn't need "natural mages" as a factional mechanic — maybe rather as a Melira-esque story-focused Legend/cycle of legends — and if so, I think Gx canister-producers could tell an interesting "balancing-nature-and-technology" story as the canisters are used elsewhere.
Could canisters come with boons in G and at a cost in B? Representing respecting nature and exploiting it? Can we justify the mechanics of canisters in black?
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Post by Inanimate on Oct 22, 2015 12:43:33 GMT -8
Well, canisters were always going to be G, that's for sure. I just think U is a more natural second color than R.
Canisters are a little more color-bend-y than Spawn were (which were a simple rebate, which any color can get) so I'm not so sure they work in black.
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Post by reuben on Oct 22, 2015 17:29:25 GMT -8
Also note White can untap creatures as part of its color pie.
UG I think is the starting point for canisters. Many 1 or 2 commons in red as well. Also having a cycle of uncommon creatures that ETB with a canister is certainly an idea to show that the AEther canisters are prevalent throughout the world without effecting the gameplay of limited too drastically.
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Post by reuben on Oct 25, 2015 16:12:58 GMT -8
More cards
Necrogenic Experiment 4B Sorcery (U) Return target creature card from your graveyard to the battlefield tapped. Put a colorless Canister artifact token onto the battlefield with “Tap, Sacrifice this: Untap target permanent. Activate only as a sorcery."
Resource Struggle 2G Sorcery (C) Choose target creature an opponent controls. When that creature dies this turn, Put a colorless Canister artifact token onto the battlefield with “Tap, Sacrifice this: Untap target permanent. Activate only as a sorcery." Target creature you control fights that creature.
Fuel the Machines 3U Sorcery (C) Draw two cards. Put two colorless Canister artifact tokens onto the battlefield with “Tap, Sacrifice this: Untap target permanent. Activate only as a sorcery."
Challenge Allegiances 1RR Sorcery (C) Gain control of target creature until end of turn. It gains haste. Put a colorless Canister artifact token onto the battlefield with “Tap, Sacrifice this: Untap target permanent. Activate only as a sorcery." Note that this doesn't untap the creature.
AEther Addict 3R Creature - Human Warrior (C) Sacrifice an artifact: ~ gains haste until end of turn. 4/2 A possible way to have red care about canisters without having to have many at common
EDIT: another card similar to the juggernaut
Battery Golem 4 Artifact Creature - Golem (C) Battery Golem doesn’t untap during your untap step. 5/5
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Post by jaytreat on Oct 26, 2015 12:25:18 GMT -8
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